Up@dawn 2.0

Monday, November 7, 2016

Quiz Nov 9/10

"Plato at the 92d Street Y"

1. What meme isn't required to remind us that every generation wants their children to do well?

2. Is Plato's ideal polis a true republic?

3. What's a MOOC?

4. What's the "essence of freedom" according to Plato?

5. What are the Greek words for play and education?

6. What does Plato want to measure in candidates for future leadership rather than IQ?

7. What kind of person was Plato, according to the Myers-Briggs test?

8. Why shouldn't we fear death, according to Plato?

DQ

  • Are you  or anyone you know a product of "warrior" parenting? Should parents push their children to be "off-the-charts" achievers? Does that compromise the "integrity of the child" (173) or her capacity for lifetime happiness?
  • Plato says he loves the internet. Do you think he'd want it in his "Republic"?
  • Is greater earning power the most important quality-of-life difference a good education can make for students?
  • What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?
  • What do you think of Plato's idea that there are no truly original thoughts, but that all knowledge is recollection? 172
  • Is being a high achiever the same as being "exceptional"?
  • How do we "enlarge our thinking by bringing others into the dialogue"? 
  • Can you become your own person if you've been pushed to excel?
  • Who should decide what your "best" potential is? 175
  • Has feminism "intensified the projectification of children"? 179
  • What's wrong with being a "success junkie"? 180
  • Has your formal education so far been a form of play? How could it have been moreso?
  • Do you think the internet strengthens or weakens democracy? 189
  • Do you agree with Plato that "you cannot change human nature"? 194
  • What kind of person are you, according to the Myers-Briggs test? Do you accept that result?



Eliza Byard (@EByard)
This is how the future voted. This is what people 18-25 said in casting their votes. We must keep this flame alight and nurture this vision. pic.twitter.com/ivuXrar869
Brian Greene (@bgreene)
Sometimes the only thing that brings me comfort is to take a step back and look at the big picture.pic.twitter.com/Wcr8n8Cj1h
Scott Kelly (@StationCDRKelly)
Let this perspective remind us we are all in this together. The difference between our #success and failure is#teamwork#election2016 pic.twitter.com/Sb43ADRQCK


97 comments:

  1. (h3) Warrior parent? No, no because it is impossible to tell how an individual will receive input. You take someone who, as a child received very few opportunists or attention, for example, and this could be the driving force for them to better themselves, or the excuse for them to do the opposite. But human beings are the some totals of our experience, essentially we are elf aware computers who are constantly learning, growing, and evolving. You cannot simply remove all input form the child and still get a human being.

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  2. (H3) Republic Wide Webb? Heck no, how are you supposed to keep up a noble lie with something like the internet at everyone's disposal.

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  3. (H3) Earning power? Yes, but with the condition that earning power also include not jut material but intellectual profit. After all it is education that fuels our ability to reason, to philosophies, to thelosophise, and all other pursuits of the mind.

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  4. (H3) Online learning? Well the biggest disadvantage is, of course, the inability to ask questions in any timely fashion. This makes it practically impossible for a student to engage the teacher in questions that take more than a simple, one shot answer.

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  5. (H3) Original thought. Well personally I have to fall back on my theological outlook to answer that honestly. In which case no, everything anyone can think of has, already been conceived of by God. Assuming you could think of something he has thought of he still conceived of it first because he conceived (or rather understood that you did) of you thinking it before you thought it.

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  6. (H3) Achiever? No, I could achieve a lot, for example, I could achieve the rank of Major in the US military but that in it's self does not make me exceptional.

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  7. (H3) Dialogue? Well bring in others brings in other opinions and ideas and conceptions which broadens the intellectual scope of possibility for a conversation.

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  8. (H3) Junkie? The problem with that I would say is humility, knowing hen to accept that you might not be the best person in the room. Not being able to do that puts you at risk of becoming a certain presidential candidate who has taken on the name of "the Donald" as if he was the originator of the name.

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  9. (H3) My girlfriend's dad was a "warrior" parent. He pushed her extremely hard to the point of emotionally hurting her in his attempt to "push" her.

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  10. (H3) I believe parents should always push their children to perform to the best of their abilities but there is a line that should not be crossed. Children should choose their own paths and should be allowed down time and to do things that they are passionate about.

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  11. (H3) I think Plato would allow the Internet in his "Republic". It allows for the ability to find all sorts of information and is a very useful tool.

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  12. (H3) Earning more money clearly is a huge advantage of a good education but I don't know if it is the most important one. A good education just overall makes you a more well-informed and intelligent human being and usually drives you to be your best.

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  13. (H3) In online learning you don't have other classmates to study with you or ask questions if you need to. You also don't develop a face to face connection with the professor who could help you if you aren't understanding something. Another issue is that you have more distractions with an online course.

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  14. (H3) Many thoughts are original, there are millions of things yet to be thought that haven't been recollected. Even if a thought is recollected, it had to first be original in order to recollected later.

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  15. (H3) Being a high achiever does not always mean being exceptional. I can be a high achiever and still not be considered exceptional by some.

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  16. (H3) Are you or anyone you know a product of "warrior" parenting? Should parents push their children to be "off-the-charts" achievers? Does that compromise the "integrity of the child" (173) or her capacity for lifetime happiness?
    I was only a warrior child in an academic sense. I had to have all A's (Not even Bs, mind you) or else I was severely punished. I grew up to be in the top 10% of my class and a GPA of over 4.3, but what I also got was a diagnosis of severe anxiety and a perfectionist complex. There is nothing wrong with wanting your child to do well, and pushing them to make sure they do well, but understand your child is a child and is not perfect.

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  17. (H3) What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?
    In online classrooms you miss out on genuine human connections that help us grow more as students than reading a book can. Teachers passing down stories of wisdom to the students, disagreements that can change perspectives, a classroom full of complete confusion.

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  18. (H3) How do we "enlarge our thinking by bringing others into the dialogue"?
    Simply, other people provide a fresh perspective that will make us think differently.

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  19. (H3) What kind of person are you, according to the Myers-Briggs test? Do you accept that result?
    I've taken the test over the years and i've pretty much stayed at ENFJ. I flip between Feeling and Intuitive very often, my most current result was between 52% vs 48%. I love taking personality tests but at this point I know who I am.

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  20. (H3) Who should decide what your "best" potential is?
    In the end, you. Once you become an adult it's up to you to decide what you want to do and what you feel doing your best means. You may fall below the bar on a general-societal scale, but in the end it really doesn't matter.

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  21. (H3) What's wrong with being a "success junkie"?
    Because after awhile, it no longer is about the achievement, but about the validation from others it gives, and it's never enough.

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  22. (H3) Has your formal education so far been a form of play? How could it have been moreso?
    The more challenging and comprehensive the curriculum has got, the more I enjoyed it as a form of play. Classes like home ec. and this philosophy class, got me to learn more because more often than not we aren't just sitting down taking notes.

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  23. (H3) Online learning is definitely controversial. On one hand, you can get the convenience of learning from your own home, in a more comfortable, low-pressure setting. You can also learn from anywhere in the world, therefore, it might spark an interest in traveling and experiencing other cultures. It is also customized to each person's needs and time constraints: work, family, etc. However, it almost eliminates the social aspect. It is harder to build connections because, no matter how much technology is out there, a face-to-face conversation is almost always the best approach. It is harder to ask questions and get the "classroom discussion" experience. There are definitely both advantages and disadvantages to online learning.

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  24. (H3) I hope greater earning power is not the most important quality of life difference a good education can make for students. I hope that my education will allow me to look at the world in different ways, to understand the world more clearly. I'm in it for the knowledge, because a wide man once said, "knowledge is power". I won't say having a better, higher-paying job isn't a goal, but there are definitely multiple reasons to get a good education, and not all involve money.

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    1. I wish I lived in a world where everyone agreed on that. My goal for college is to gain knowledge and become a better person, but I admit I worry about the monetary aspect often.

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  25. (H3) I think he respects the tool and its power. But as he points out, "absolute power corrupts absolutely". I think he would only in trust this knowledge to a few chosen individuals, perhaps only the guardians.

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  26. (H3) I don't think any of my friends or I am a product of "warrior" parenting. My parents focused on me being aware of the world around me and independent. I wasn't pushed to be an "off the charts" achiever, however, I have always pushed myself to do my best. I think it can have a damaging effect on children who are pushed to be on top of their game 24/7. They need the experience of failure and the freedom to explore who they are and make mistakes. All that pressure usually leads to a break. I think it can compromise a child's integrity and happiness. We learn and grow more from our failures than our successes.

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  27. (H3) You as an individual should determine what your "best" potential is. No one else knows else well as you do what you can accomplish.

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  28. (H3) Being a "success junkie" could overtake your life. You could focus on just your own success and forget about the well being of others or even yourself.

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  29. (H3) I would say the internet strengthens democracy. It brings a wide variety of views together and allows us to be more informed.

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    1. Agreed because everyone can access the same information and make decisions based on it.

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  30. What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?

    Advantage: An online curriculum caters well to individuals who may not be able to make time at traditional hours of the day for learning. Disadvantage: It robs one of the human contact that I feel makes up 80% of the learning experience. Also, no hands on opportunities online. If I were in charge, I would simply forbid online options for full time, young, college students, and save online learning for those who have it as their only viable option.

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  31. What's wrong with being a "success junkie"?

    It sets one up for disappointment. There is more to life than mere success as the world defines it. To pursue such a thing for chemical thrills will render the failures all the more crushing and unforgivable.

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  32. (H3) I am ENFJ according to Myer-Briggs. I would say that it is an accurate description of my personality.

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  33. Do you think the internet strengthens or weakens democracy?

    Strengthens it. Democracy is about everyone having a voice in their vote. The internet opens the dialogue concerning those votes.

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  34. What kind of person are you, according to the Myers-Briggs test? Do you accept that result?

    I am an ENFP, and almost entirely fit the description of that type.

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  35. Do you agree with Plato that "you cannot change human nature"?

    Absolutely. Human nature will never change. Therefore, we need to continue to learn new and better ways of building societies that acknowledge our nature, and bring about a better world in spite of it.

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  36. I agree that we cannot change human nature, we may go about satisfying those basic needs in different ways, but we are all trying to meet those same needs. Biology is something that is ingrained and can be suppressed but not dissolved.

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  37. I do not think Plato would want internet in his republic unless it was only for his elite group because they are the ones who are the thinkers, the ones who know what is best for the civilization.

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  38. What's wrong with being a success junkie? Everything. If your only motivation is success then you will do whatever it takes to achieve success. It doesn't matter if it is moral, right, good, or not. You will do it just to succeed.

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    1. I don't know if I agree with this. My goal is to succeed in school (get good grades), that doesn't mean I'm going to cheat to get there, it just means I'm going to work harder.

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  39. According to the Myers-briggs test, I am both an INTJ and an INTP. The reason I am both is because I am right on the cusp between judging and thinking and I have received both answers through multiple tests that have slightly different questions. I do accept this outcome because I believe it actually accurately describes myself.

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  40. The Myers-Briggs test showed me to be an INTJ. I feels this represents me in some situation . Many of my results were very close to 50-50. I feel this shows that my behavior is more dependent on circumstance than my natural personality. I could go either way depending on the context.

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  41. H1
    DQ:•Plato says he loves the internet. Do you think he'd want it in his "Republic"?
    I think he'd definitely have the internet, but it would not be the internet as we know it today. No superficial time-wasting sites, no porn or dating sites, but a lot of informational sites, encyclopedias, censored poetry, literature and music. I think there would be discussion sites, where people could write each other their pondering, but I think it would be more on the level of Peter and Valentine's internet work in Ender's Game than our reddit etc.

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  42. Everyone's formal education throughout the public school system is not a form of play at all. However, some parts of it may have been a form of play depending on the teacher. The school system could have done a much better job with this in making education stimulate us with things that keep us interested or holds our attention. Sitting and working does not achieve this.

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  43. The only person who can know what our "best" is is ourselves. We know our abilities, strengths, and goals better than anyone and therefore we will know how to achieve the best life for ourselves. What is best for one person may not be best for another. This is subjective upon what each person wants in their lives and what they see best fit.

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  44. H1
    DQ:•Do you agree with Plato that "you cannot change human nature"?
    Yes. I think that a person can (and ought) to change their selves for the better, but I do not think that human nature has changed at all over the centuries. Cultures have grown more complex, justice driven, and "more civilized," and education has an effect on people as individuals, but I don't think this changes their base nature.

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  45. We enlarge our thinking by bringing other people into the dialogue simple by bringing in a new perspective and new opinions that we may not have considered yet.

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  46. By bringing other people into the dialogue we enlarge our thinking by getting various and contrasting perspectives and ideas that we would not have considered before. It allows us to open our eyes to the vast diversity around us and expand our knowledge base to be more sympathetic and inclusive of a bigger picture.

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  47. By bringing other people into the dialogue we enlarge our thinking by getting various and contrasting perspectives and ideas that we would not have considered before. It allows us to open our eyes to the vast diversity around us and expand our knowledge base to be more sympathetic and inclusive of a bigger picture.

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  48. (H3) I think Plato has a point when he says that all knowledge is recollection. All human thinking is just associations. Everything we choose or deduce is based on past experiences, what we have seen, heard, etc. We compare these associations to current situations and that is how we process information. It seems somewhat cynical to say there are no truly original thoughts, but that doesn't mean that nothing new can be produced. It just takes a certain person to interpret the data a little differently for something new to occur.

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  49. (H3) I don't think being a high achiever and being exceptional are the same. A high achiever is someone who strives to exceed expectations. Someone who works hard to achieve more than their peers. Being exceptional refers to innate talent. Neither is really better than the other but there is a distinction.

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  50. (H3) We enlarge our thinking by bringing others into the dialogue because we are adding to the pool of ideas. By including more people, different perspectives and phrases arise. One person might draw an association the other did not think to draw. By adding people to a conversation, you add each of their lifetimes of experiences to the conversation.

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  51. I took the Myers Briggs test in psychology. I was also INTJ. I don't think it actually means anything simply because it tries to categorize people when people are complex. There might also be a self-reporting bias.

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  52. Christian Brooks (H3)12:41 PM CST

    “Should parents push their children to be "off-the-charts" achievers? Does that compromise the "integrity of the child" (173) or her capacity for lifetime happiness?”
    According to the Orchid Theory children have certain traits that will be hardwired into their personality no matter what; they are hardy like a dandelion. For some characteristics, they need to be carefully tended and monitored so that they can flourish far above the normal potential, like an orchid. I believe that as long as the parent(s) take care of the child, love the child, and try to help those special characteristics flourish, everything will turn out fine.

    “Plato says he loves the internet. Do you think he'd want it in his "Republic”?”
    I believe that due to the nature of its uses, the information is too useful to ignore. He mentioned censoring art, so maybe some aspects of the internet would be restricted to stay in line with his vision.

    “Is greater earning power the most important quality-of-life difference a good education can make for students?”
    Depending on what the student wants from their adult life, it may be. Many people want to have the nicest, newest things and live in the biggest house. However, if they want no materialistic aspects to use for happiness, they may not want the earning power at all.

    “What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?”
    The online system can be cheated fairly easily, which takes away from the desired outcome. In addition to the cheating of the system is a simplification of what happens in a college setting: many students get out of a course what they put into it. If the assignment is to write a paper and it is not well-written, the students are only hurting themselves. I think this could be concentrated for online classes.

    “What do you think of Plato's idea that there are no truly original thoughts, but that all knowledge is recollection?”
    It seems rather naïve. On a purely logical basis, the recollection had to come from somewhere; therefore, there must have been a source for an original thought. On a less pedantic note, even innovative ideas are based from something, so while it may not be recollection it may be inspiration.

    “What kind of person are you, according to the Myers-Briggs test? Do you accept that result?”
    I am an INTJ person, like Plato, a ‘Mastermind’ or ‘Architect.’ There is no psychological basis for any of the personality types, sort of like astrological signs, though it can be fun to play with it. I do accept the result, though I actually wish it had more of a psychological presence.

    “Do you agree with Plato that "you cannot change human nature"?”
    I do agree, but I also think that so much of a personality is based upon culture that genetics would be extremely difficult to differentiate between ‘true’ human nature as defined by all humans.

    “Who should decide what your "best" potential is?”
    It may be rather cliché, but I believe that only an individual can determine their own best potential. Others may be able to help them recognize it, but they should have the ultimate say-so.

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  53. I agree that you can't change human nature. Like Zee said, people always strive to be better. But I agree with Munitz when she says parents should not be so demanding (or take that human nature to an extreme) that children get better only to please others.

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  54. I am an INFP, which is a "mediator" personality. I mostly agree with that description. h3

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  55. Oneself should decide what your "best" potential is. Only oneself can know what they want to achieve and what they need to do for themselves to do it. h3

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    1. But what if you see yourself as lower than you actually are and have no self-esteem? You're worth more than you think, so wouldn't you need help?

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  56. Plato says he loves the internet. Do you think he'd want it in his "Republic"? No, he needed a royal lie. The internet is about free speech and flow of information. Plato wouldn't want people to realize the lie that held together his republic through the internet. h3

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  57. What's wrong with being a "success junkie"? People start to get their self worth from their success, which is unhealthy. h3

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    1. Why is it unhealthy? Is it wrong to feel good about yourself because you've accomplished everything you set out to do?

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  58. What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms? Internet classrooms don't always allow the conversational aspect that a conventional classroom easily can. h3

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    1. But is that entirely bad? Some students find it difficult to focus in a classroom where there is a lot of conversations.

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  59. Do you think the internet strengthens or weakens democracy? I think it strengthens democracy because it allows people to converse freely, organize movements, and get information easily. h3

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    1. But isn't it also an easy way to control people? If anyone can change something on Wikipedia imagine what those who have advance technology skills could do...

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  60. I don’t think that parents should push their children to be “off-the-charts” achievers, but I do think that parents should push their children to be the best them they can be. Maybe if parents did that we wouldn’t have so many “slackers” for lack of a better word.

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  61. I don’t think that a high achiever is the same as exceptional. I think that being exceptional involves more than just achieving a lot of stuff; I think it involves having a great character and good morals as well.

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  62. I feel like in a conventional classroom you actually maintain more and learn more because you’re seeing and hearing, instead of just reading. I also think that an online learning is good as well because you can go at a faster or slower pace if need be, it’s a more flexible and comfortable setting.

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  63. We "enlarge our thinking by bringing others into the dialogue” because we hear others’ ideas and points of view, broadening the things we know.

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  64. I think you can become your own person even if you’ve been pushed to excel because everyone at some point need a little bit of a push to get started or to keep going. It doesn’t mean you lose yourself.

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  65. Being a “success junkie” you lose sight of what really matters and who you are because you’re too wrapped up in getting the next promotion or raise.

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  66. By bringing other people into the dialogue we enlarge our thinking by getting various and contrasting perspectives and ideas that we would not have considered before. It allows us to open our eyes to the vast diversity around us and expand our knowledge base to be more sympathetic and inclusive of a bigger picture.

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    1. I agree with you completely. We need to expand our knowledge base.

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  67. According to the Myers-Briggs test, I am an Advocate Personality (INFJ, -A/-T). I suppose in some areas I would have to agree with this statement, I really didn’t like being compared to Rose from Titanic. #JackCouldHaveLived

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  68. It think that Plato would have loved for the internet to have been in the republic, however I believe that if the internet had been in the republic the internet would look very differently then it does today, and would not be nearly as widespread.

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  69. I think that you can make the same amount of money without having a degree. Crazy idea, I know, especially coming from an accounting student, but I believe the best tool that college attempts to give you is the ability to think subjectively and to acquire a love for knowledge rather then just feeding you straight intelligence.

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  70. The advantages of online learning are in my opinion pretty straight forward the most outstanding being the ability to work at your own pace. There are obvious other benefits like becoming incredibly computer literate. Which goes right along with you acquiring the ability to use your recourses quite well.

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  71. Not necessarily this made me think for this goes beyond just the meanings of the words and I have settled that the word high is what separates them. An achiever is one that stands out, likewise exceptional is one that stands out but the word high refers to good or better. The word exceptional could also mean bad such as in "He preformed exceptionally horrific acts of crime."

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  72. We bring other people into our conversation to make our ideas seem more right this happens a lot in philosophy. People site former philosophers in order to make there ideas seem more correct.

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  73. You and you alone should decide what your full potential is there is no one else that is capable of telling you what your capabilities are often you waste your time pursuing what others have told you to be you actually are less help to society.

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  74. I believe that the internet strengthens democracy because it allows you to have the in depth knowledge about the candidates that we need in order to make an informed decision.

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  75. You cant change human nature because it is our nature it was what where programed to do when we are programmed to do it. Human nature is to eat and it is not something that you can just make go away.

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  76. (H1) Plato says he loves the internet. Do you think he'd want it in his "Republic"?

    I think Plato would want his elite to have access to the internet so that they might keep improving themselves, but keep it away from the lower rungs so that society may stay stable.

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  77. (H1) Is greater earning power the most important quality-of-life difference a good education can make for students?

    I believe that while earning-power is important so that someone might have a more secure future, a good education can also lead to a generally happier life in which the student feels content and happy with what they have achieved and what talents they have. A good education may allow this for a student by allowing them to fully explore their natural talents and skills.

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  78. (H1) What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?

    Online learning allows anyone to learn something from anywhere in the world, an invaluable gift to education. However, having a teacher be there in person does add to the experience of learning, which is just as important as the act of learning itself. A teacher can personally help a student or, as said in the book, instill the same excitement about the subject in the student.

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  79. (H1) Is being a high achiever the same as being "exceptional"?

    In my opinion, being exceptional means excelling in your chosen field, which coincides with the idea of a "high achiever." However, I think an important difference is that a high achiever aims for those heights in order to simply accomplish something but someone who is truly exceptional in an area also has a passion and gift for it that drove them to those heights.

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  80. (H1) How do we "enlarge our thinking by bringing others into the dialogue"?

    Dialogue is important to the development of thoughts and ideas, as you get to see others' perspectives on things and end up learning about the world in a new way and thinking about it in different terms. If you don't have a dialogue with anyone about any ideas, then you are simply stuck with your original thoughts, unchallenged in any way, which soon turn stagnant.

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  81. (H1) Who should decide what your "best" potential is?

    While others may be able to see talents and potential you yourself can not and therefore their guidance and advice in invaluable in personal development, ultimately I believe it is the person themselves who knows what they can ultimately do and should be responsible for unlocking that ultimate potential, for no one can no someone better than they know themselves.

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  82. (H1) Do you think the internet strengthens or weakens democracy?

    I think the internet allows for more discussion regarding the elements of democracy and allows new thoughts to flow through as well as makes more information available, thereby allowing people to really learn about their government and those who are in power. Being able to keep a check on those in the highest seats of power is important for a stable democracy so that it doesn't turn into a dictatorship or a tyrannical government.

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  83. (H1) What kind of person are you, according to the Myers-Briggs test? Do you accept that result?

    I'm an INTJ and while I believe that I generally align with this result, I don't feel limited or confined to this as I am aware that sometimes I step out of these bounds and act or think differently than the way this result says I should. While I think it's a good descriptor for an overall or normal mindset, it does not allow for the flow that comes with living and making decisions.

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  84. (H1) Can you become your own person if you've been pushed to excel?

    I think being pushed too much demolishes your ability to become your own best self and instead turns you into what those pushing you want. However, on the flip side, being pushed to an extent forces you to better yourself in ways you might not have on your own.

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  85. I think being a high achiever leads to being exceptional. People who become exceptional (not powerful). Generally work for it. I think many people confuse being exceptional and powerful though. One has to truly work to be exceptional in this world but power (unfortunately) can just be voted to someone. (H1)

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  86. I am ISFJ-T. It explains me almost to the exact point. I have been late to this class because I can not leave work unfinished and any work on my desk must be done to the best of my ability. I am very protective of my friends and try to help them best I can. I remember a lot of stories my friends tell me about their lives and facts from school that I can use later, but I can not remember a lot of details that I do not see a use for. If you ask me to do something I will do it, but will say sorry for how bad it is when I give it back despite it not being that bad(most of the time).

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  87. What advantages or disadvantages do you see in online learning, compared with conventional classrooms?

    Online learning is a good resource for certain situations. But when compared to classroom learning, I believe that it doesn't measure up. Learning is about more than just the material taught. It is about your interactions with people, your ideas being challenged, and in turn growing in your philosophies of life. I think that is a major part in truly having an education. H1

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  88. High achiever does not mean exceptional. The words are related, but not causation. If one is a high achiever it is more generalized, but if one is exceptional I relate that more to a category like novice or intermediate. A person can be a high achieving novice, but does not mean they are exceptional because it consists of more than just achievement. Exceptional I think consists of things like achievement, but also experience and skills.

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  89. I think online learning is advantageous because it is closer to self taught, self paced, and can be more in-depth, but on the other hand with the possibly of it being more in-depth is no understanding of the concept with no instructor to help.

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