Group Members: Yusra M., Erin P., Larissa W., Keaton D., and Evan Lester
Post by: Evan Lester
In today's discussion, we talked the majority of the time on minority rights, especially on immigration. We described different aspects of how Americans are not willing to accept foreigners. There could be different factors that cause, including safety, culture values, and etc. However, we also talked about if we are truly the "melting pot" of the world, then she would be open to everyone to have the equal opportunity to come to the U.S.A. As Erin pointed out, it seems if we are a little selfish by not wanting to share with the other people in the world.
Also, we discussed if the U.S. citizen test is a fair test for incoming immigrants to take. We agreed that we do not even know all of the information that they are tested on. Yes, we have taken history class throughout our lives, but the facts that the immigrants have to memorize are things that we did not even know.
Then, Keaton brought up the discussion of enduring and transitional rights point that was made by Kymlicka. He believed that Americans should have the same rights as everyone else, including immigrants. Also, we discussed about how we treat Native Americans. Are we truly corrupting them by giving them money and special benefits? Is this a way of paying them back for the hardships that they have faced throughout the founding of America?
Transitioning to the deporting issue.... Linton, a floater from another group, made a very good point about how we determine the issue of deporting. He talked about how in the beginning of immigration, the people that came to Ellis Island were tested for diseases. We did not want those people in our country if they would spread diseases to the people who were born here. This example comes from our history when the Spanish came to the new world and brought many diseases that wiped out a good chunk of the original population.
Also, we brought up the discussion of how we determine if the immigrants that come are truly coming here to better themselves or are they coming just to come. The topic was brought up about how we can truly see how they are differentiated by the way they work. Those people that work hard that are trying to gather money to support their family are truly here to better themselves. The people who do not work hard are here to live off the support of the government or other special benefits.
Nate, if you read this please bring up the point you made in or group because the notes I took I feel are not adequate enough to relay the strong message you gave. You have a great view about our topic, and I wish for you to share it from your perspective! THANKS!
DQ: Do you have a limit of how much of a person you can tolerate? What can you not tolerate?
FQ: Q: According to Wendy Brown, what is thought of as the great virtue of democratic societies?
A: Tolerance
Link: http://cltr.co.douglas.nv.us/Elections/100QuestionTest.htm
Here is a link to a list of 100 questions that could possibly be on the US citizen test. I thought this would be interesting to look at.
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ReplyDelete" The people who do not work hard are here to live off the support of the government or other special benefits. "
ReplyDeleteI take great issue with this statement, because it is completely false. Illegal immigrants receive next to no government assistance.
From the American Immigration Lawyers Association: http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/top-5-immigration-myths-campaign-season-ending-immigration-spin-just-facts
"MYTH #3: The nation spends billions of dollars on welfare for undocumented immigrants.
FACTS: To the contrary, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any “welfare” benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive.
As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007 report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public “welfare” benefits — ever.
Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years
before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.
A 2007 analysis of welfare data by researchers at the Urban Institute reveals that less than 1 percent of households headed by undocumented immigrants receive cash assistance for needy families, compared to 5 percent of households headed by native-born U.S. citizens."
If you are privy to benefits they do receive, I would honestly love to hear them. I dated a guy whose father and step-father were illegal immigrants, and both of whom were deported.
Because understanding breeds empathy, The deportation process, just fyi consists of:
1. Witch hunting--agents have lists of people who they should arrest, but then often stay longer and quite literally barge into houses without search warrants where they think there is an illegal immigrant. "They never told us they were immigration, she says. They shouted, police. They banged on the front door. And [entered the kitchen]" This is what happened to my ex. They were never shown a search warrant, nor were the people identified as police...and his mom was a legal citizen! This could happen to anyone--including you.
2. They are held in deportation centers for indefinite times. "Since they aren't legal citizens, they are not entitled to jury trials. They're not entitled to lawyers paid for by the taxpayer. They're not entitled to, you know, a Miranda warning since it's not a criminal case" They often get abused, and sometimes raped. They aren't citizens so they can't really complain.
3. They are then essentially dropped off at a bus station in Mexico. No support for the remaining (often legal) family. Contrary to common opinion, you don't just get a green card/citizenship them moment you marry someone in another country. According to the Pew HIspanic Center, there are over 9 million people living in "mixed-status" families--ie, 1 legal and 1 illegal parent.
The more you know!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16579037
It may have come off different in this post, but in context of our conversation yesterday it made perhaps more sense. We were discussing giving migrants special benefits that allow them to assimilate and transition into the American lifestyle or the Native Americans. They are given money to make up for the horrible actions done agains them hundreds of years ago or extra classes and such to become well incorporated into the fabric of American life
DeleteOh thank you for clarifying, Yusra!
DeleteI am sorry that you took that the wrong way Matthew with the topic of illegal immigration. We were only talking about immigrants who were coming here legally with all the proper paperwork and etc. However, thank you for voicing your opinion on such a crucial topic. It is something I am sure we will discuss next class.
DeleteNice sum up of our talk Evan! (Yes, I am writing this 15 minutes after we just talked about this)
ReplyDeleteI think we made some pretty good points today. The topic (like the last 2) has been one that is perhaps delicate to some, but just like cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism is very important to discuss. I think these are the some of the most pressing and most important topics in philosophy and our world today. By discussing this in class I think we are learning a lot about each other, but also I think we are learning that we (as a whole) cannot come to a concrete decision, or a concrete line that we can use to distinguish between right and wrong.
I think immigration is another one of these sensitive and crucial topics. America is such a wonderful place that we've been given so many blessings and oppurtunities and freedoms, many people don't realize this until they've gone out of the States and seen the life others lead. So many people live in countries that are impoverished, under dictatorships, torn by war. They see America as an amazing utopia of sorts. These people go to such lengths to come here!!!! They risk their lives for betterment of their lives, to send money home, to escape from their homes. These people leave EVERYTHING!! Can you imagine being in a country torn by war and having to flee with nothing but the clothes on your back? This is happening ALL OVER THE WORLD! (the people of syria fleeing to turkey is just one example of many!)
Erin said she just wants to help them all, to bring them all here. I feel the same, but I understand the impracticalities of it. If their own countries were better, then they would be so much more likely to stay. Is this the reason WHY America gets involved in countries? But then there is the whole "American thinks it is better than everyone" issue we've discussed many times before.
It might just be my maternal instincts but I want all of the people to be helped. I also think it's very important to think before making claims like "everyone who crosses the border is sneaking in drugs" that I think was brought up.
We honestly need to realize how fortunate and blessed we are!!!!
FQ: What country does Kymlicka advise politicians about immigrants?
ANSWER: Canada
DQ: Have you changed your opinion about migrants before from being intolerant to tolerant?
I agree with you that if we have the ability to help people, it is our duty to help people. And I think the fact that these people are leaving everything to come to our country really should wake us up to the fact that we have it good here. And we have people in desperate situations that need our assistance and our love.
DeleteWe have laws to keep millions of people from overwhelming our country. George Bush said, "We're a nation of laws, and we must enforce our laws." However, I do think they should be reorganized so that it is easier for someone to become a citizen. Bush made progress in this area, but there is still room for improvement. Pres. Obama seems to have similar plans for immigration so we may see some progress. If they want to become a citizen and can contribute to society (which they will because they want to provide for their families), then they should be able to do so in a way that does not take a decade to become a reality. Following his previous statement, Bush said, "We're also a nation of immigrants, and we must uphold that tradition."
DQ: Do you agree with Wendy Brown that our nation's tolerance is being "used as a justification for not tolerating another regime, culture, or religion"?
FQ: Wendy Brown fully supports today's use and practice of the word "tolerant"
FA: False
These are wonderful comments. I understand the points against deportation, but allow me to offer a few counter points.
ReplyDeleteAs for the reports of the conduct of federal agents, I would expect there to be more credible information than an eye-witness report of what happened. But my problem with ilegal immigrants isn't that I don't want them here. They don't recieve any SS or Medicare and Medicaid because they don't pay taxes for them or income taxes on their wages. Matthew brought up the point in class that the naturalization process can take years and large amounts of money, and on that point I am in concurrence with his point. I believe that the system needs to be open for compromise, and perhaps they could lower costs, waiting times, and level of difficulty. But I feel as if ilegal immigrants are taking advantage of the system, breaking the law (for what that's worth), and I think they should be willing to apply for their citizenship (perhaps once these changes take place).
Through the other side's glasses, I see how conditions in third world countries can be awful, and the continuity of their family in some cases depends upon its relocation to America: and that is a valid reason. I would do the same for my family, and that's why I say there needs to be compromise between the Government and Ilegal Immigrants.
-Jake Goza (H01)
"As for the reports of the conduct of federal agents, I would expect there to be more credible information than an eye-witness report of what happened."
DeleteThere is. There is a lot. Including several successful lawsuits.
When ever I have bad feelings towards illegal immigrants, I have to remind myself, "If I were in their position, wouldn't I do anything earthly possible to help my family?". I would do about anything. With the high standards of citizenship, it might be my only option to come over illegally. Does it make it right? No. Does it make it right that we have such high, almost unreachable, standards? No.
ReplyDeleteSomewhere, there is a middle ground that we have yet to find. No, it won't be perfect but constant controversy and law breaking is not the answer.
But more on the topic of rights. Though I believe that the Federal government oversteps their bounds sometimes, I think that sometimes we need to appreciate what we ourselves have. It is like with little children, when a unused toy is suddenly valuable soon as another kid plays with it.
We need to be happy with the rights we have, especially as Americans. Therefore, so what if an immigrant has the native language taught to them? We have public school- a thing that we often complain about or drop out of. So what if we have preferential treatment of native Americans? Is that taken anything away from you? Not to my knowledge.
I guess it can feel like that we are in debt for our ancestors bad deeds, but perhaps it is our job to redeem them through it.
I really liked our discussion about minority rights and immigration. This is a topic very dear to my heart, living and working among a community of refugees from Burma. Like Yusra said, I just want to help everybody! I've been to many other countries outside of the United States and have realized through that how incredibly lucky we are to have grown up here. I do wish that all immigrants were legal but we have to understand how hard the citizenship/visa process is. I try to put myself into their shoes. What if coming to America was their only chance of survival and they needed to be here immediately? In these types of situations, I do feel for these people. But I do realize that we have to have a limit and enforce those. I also believe that when legal immigrants first arrive, they should receive some help because I have witnessed how hard the transition is on the families. But it needs to be clear how long they will receive the help so they don't depend on it, but rather use it as steps to becoming independent. It also makes me so angry when people make ignorant comments about immigrants, such as getting frustrated when they can't speak English. It takes a long time to learn a whole new language, while also trying to get used to the different culture and aspects of everyday life in America. Something we can't even imagine having to handle!
ReplyDeleteMichele, I like your comments about rights. I agree. We should focus more on being appreciative of the rights we do have rather than getting angry about rights that others receive when they get here.
FQ: What event caused the focus and direction of the word 'tolerance' to change?
9/11
DQ: Do you agree that with tolerance comes intolerance?
I think this topic is easy to talk about, but difficult to apply. Unfortunately, we can’t help everyone. There has to be a limit because it’s serious. I agree that America is really strict on the issue, but what else is there? All processes take long. There is so much to check out. When my mom applied for her citizenship, you would not believe the paperwork. It’s tedious, but it’s necessary. How else would you know that people come here for good reasons? And it isn’t like there is an endless work force to help the process speed along.
ReplyDeletePeople want to better themselves and escape their countries. I understand that, and if I were in their place, I’m sure I would feel the same way. The system is flawed in some ways, but what else is there? How could you fix it?
Also, there is the issue with the stigma of immigrants. For the most part, Americans are unwilling to accept them. At least, that’s the impression that I receive. I agree with what Michelle said. We don’t have anything to lose by helping immigrants. I doesn’t take anything away from you.
DQ: Is the word tolerance proportional to what we are trying to achieve?
FQ: Wendy Brown says that tolerance is ___________ for equality.
A: A substitute.