Up@dawn 2.0

Thursday, February 14, 2013

H1G3, Hume-- "You Get A Miracle!"

My group, the philosoraptors, was officially delegated to discuss David Hume who believed that the Design Argument was fundamentally a faulty one. Along the same lines, he felt as though you should generally never believe anyone who says that they saw a miracle-- chances are, they were rushing to conclusions, quick to ascertain a supernatural cause to something that could be explained rationally.

In what I found rather surprising, wasn't that my group didn't find much interest in Hume's take on the Design Argument because "this is something we'll never know, so why bother about it? That's where you have to choose to believe, or not to believe, in your theory... be it god or otherwise,"but rather took much interest in Hume's opinion on miracles.

As someone who puts about as much stock in someone proclaiming that they saw a miracle as I do someone saying that they communicated with their dead great uncle via a medium (that is to say: I would not invest in that stock), I was surprised that the philosoraptors chose to flesh out miracles--or, more specifically, the supernatural.

Jake brought up the ideas of possession and exorcism as rather solid examples of things ("there are crazy documented things") that can't be explained by science. I'm not buying any of the notable cases provided by wikipedia , however... They are all full of exactly what Hume warns against--people exaggerating what they saw, explaining things that could be explained scientifically (ie Dissociative/Mu
ltiple Personality Disorder, and other mental disorders) as supernatural, etc.

When Chloe brought up the question of 'Why don't we see miracles now?' After all, in the 1,600+ years it took to write the bible, God seemed a little like Oprah:




 Michele responded with an interesting response: we don't see them as often because "God now works through doctors", and scientists, etc--to which Jake brought up a story that many people can relate to: his aunt was thought to have no chance of surviving cancer, and ended up making a full recovery, without much help from the doctors (if I understand correctly).

Nate, however, brought up a different angle that "When god does miracles he does it for a purpose…. People saw miracles and still didn’t believe, so he stopped....Miracles in the old testament shows God is there and exists, the new testament had Jesus, the physical manifestation of God, but now...[cue abrupt ending due to the ringing of the bell." (NB: Nate, if you could continue your thought process below, that would be much appreciated!)

I personally don't buy that response, simply because people who do not know science are rightfully more likely to assume that it is supernatural--they don't know know what they don't know;  primarily that there could be a scientific explanation for what they saw or heard about through the "telephone-esque" grapevine!

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" 
-British Writer Arthur C. Clarke

But I digress--besides this certainly doesn't explain the crazy stuff that happened in the bible (ie: Moses, the Crucifiction, etc.). NB: what Christians need to remember is that crazy miracles are reported, with  in most religions. Including shape shifting. And (DQ): Are miracles a proof that God exists?

The internet had some thoughts on miracles that I thought were thought provoking (and a little funny):



FQ: What reasons did Hume provide when saying that you should be very skeptical of a "miracle"?



13 comments:

  1. I kinda brought up the point that God worked miracles in the Old Testament to not only help his people , the Israelites, but also show his power and dominion to all. It is recorded, when Moses was leading his people out of captivity in Egypt that there were many miracles happening one after the other (aka the plagues). These weren't healing miracles, like we see in the new testament by Jesus. They were to show God's dominance over Egypt.

    But to the New Testament, I think that Jesus, since he was the Son of God, and was all good, couldn't not do miracles to heal those around him. Think of the woman who touched his cloak and was healed from her bleeding of like 19? years. Goodness poured out of him. He also turned water to wine, and such miracles to provide from the people around him and to....

    "These miracles are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you might have life in His name." John 20:31


    But furthermore, do I think that if a friends ran up to me saying that someone I don't know, walked across the stones river, that I would automatically believe it? Like the skeptics, who took this to the extreme, sometimes you cannot trust your senses. We may be mistaken, fouled, or tricked. My distinction in these matters, is that whose power is in play. Like Jake said, that his aunt was healed after relentless prayer, I believe that was a miracle because it was God at work.

    This is getting long winded haha, but let me put on the atheistic or agnostic "glasses". Since there is no higher power, everything is contained in nature. Nature is god, the governing law, not in the personality sense. So miracles do not happen. We as humans can learn to manipulate nature to our liking to an extent, but we cannot change that if we walk onto water... we will sink like stones no matter what. (except if you have a life-jacket on, which you should always wear on lakes and stuff...)

    So in my atheistic glasses I agree with you Matt and you have a very strong point, but for myself, my point is aligned basically with anything the bible says.

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  2. To Matt and Michelle, great points. I really enjoy seeing so many different points of view: they help me see different strengths to both sides as well as stimulate refection on what I believe.

    I think people use miracles as a way to prove God doesn't exist. If God is omnipotent, why doesn't he prove it? When's the last time you demanded your father to prove his authority? (Never, that's what I thought)Furthermore, God doesn't care to abuse his power for your enjoyment. He doesn't need to perform a majic trick to prove his authority, and I don't think (if he exists) he'd acquiesce to our petty demands. (as seen through Christian glasses)

    God is omnipotent, benevolent, omniscient, and infinite. Why then, can no one see him? Sickness, war, murder, death: Why do these things happen? Does God care? How can he? These are questions that there aren't any satsifying answer to. "We can't see the bigger plan. God has a purpose. We can't begin to comprehend God." Are these excuses to hide behind? Where are the real answers? I have to believe that there is nothing but our blue rock floating through space with no purpose because there's no reason for me to believe otherwise. This is the only reason that I can trust, that I can reason: And I see no other evident, logical conslusion. (Through the glasses of an agnostic)

    What's going on? (Through Jake's glasses)

    DQ: What are the lines that define what a minority group is?\

    FQ: What is the morality of our actions? Answer: not what we do, but why we do it.

    Here's a link I found iteresting:
    http://thesaurus.com/browse/morality?s=t

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    Replies
    1. I really appreciate the varying glasses perspective that we're all striving to use!

      "God doesn't care to abuse his power for your enjoyment. He doesn't need to perform a majic trick to prove his authority, and I don't think (if he exists) he'd acquiesce to our petty demands." -- what's different about now verses biblical times? Plus, Even a century ago, people were claiming miracles every other day it seems!

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    2. God was performing miracles in the old testament because people had no way of knowing him without his direct interference (the was no bible in the old testament times).
      In the new testament Jesus was the human manifestation of God, and He performed miracles because he was proving to people that he was the son of God. We are supposed to take it on faith that all of these things really happened, and we are expected to believe as well (with the lack of present day miracles because Jesus isn't physically here anymore). At least from what I sometimes think.

      Just to be clear, I'm not sure where I am on religion. I just like to argue different standpoints, ha ha. Honestly for myself, I'm not sure that I buy the Bible, but I do believe in a creative force that made the Universe. Whether or not that force is omnipotent, omniscient, etc. I highly doubt, but I'm still not sure, ha ha.

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    3. Hmm, I think those are really good points, Jake.

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  3. I'm going to comment on this even though I wasn't there and don't even belong to your group, because I need to fill out my scorecard and your post made me laugh with a perfect score of 3 for 3 in reference to the pictures. But yeah, all those "glasses" perspectives are starting to make me dizzy. Anyway, I have a hypocritical and backwards DQ for everyone: Is anyone tired of talking about God in here because it seems almost completely pointless? That DQ is kind of for other groups that consist of only religious people, as I guess it could be argued that the philosoraptors could be doing their part to introduce Matthew (THE NON-BELIEVER) to the good Lord Jesus. But still, I feel like almost every discussion in class gets turned into a civil, religious argument. This was great at first, I was all, "woo, reaffirming my faith!" and what not, but now, I think it's starting to become overused and may distract us from the philosophies that we're supposed to be learning about. Don't get me wrong, I understand that many people's values, including the values some of the philosophers we're studying, are strongly rooted in their religious beliefs. I just think that we may be overthinking all these different topics and throwing them into the religion grinder and saying the same things over and over again. Also, God is God and we are humans. Every time we have little debates over what we think about Him it just makes me feel like we're a bunch of ants arguing over the actions of the President of the United States or something. Our petty back-and-forth discussions are not going to change Him, and I don't think they're going to change the beliefs of others, at this point.
    ....so, this is kind of just my healthy reminder that we are learning about philosophy, not Christianity, and also that philosophy is a lot more simple than religion, so we can sort of relax a bit..ya know, if you guys want to. You may not want to. That's fine too.

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    1. I completely agree with you. That is why our group has been hankering to switch up our "group number", because group 3 tends to get the religious topics... well for the past 3 weeks ,like the way group 4 is always talking about minorities and respect, we always end up talking about religion.

      We kinda started up the glasses thing, because it is getting trite. So... I start a motion to either switch up topic numbers.

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    2. hahaha, Logan, did you see my comment on Emily's post?

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    3. hahaha, Logan, did you see my comment on Emily's post?

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    4. No... but I'll go look..

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  4. Woops... try not to sue me for plagiarism. But hey! Looks like everyone's on the same page anyways. Awesome haha.

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  5. The volume of information on this blog astounds me. It's awesome, but crazy at the same time. My apologies if I lack awareness of all the threads of conversation that are going on. That said, I love reading your thoughts (and some of the mid-terms that are coming out).

    Logan, I agree. It's easy to talk rather than to listen, or to listen but be thinking of your own response (“Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”). God is the most important facet of my life, and though that will influence my input, that does not mean that should guide the group discussions. I've actually been surprised by how many of our discussions have gone that route, even with the content that we've been reading (as Matthew and Michele pointed out). Thanks for commenting on that Logan; I'll try to be more aware of it.

    I do agree with you Matthew, I tend to be skeptical when it comes to the miraculous. I guess the difference is that I give it the benefit of the doubt. As I said in class, I think God is more concerned with the condition of your heart than he is your circumstances. If miracles will bring us closer to himself, then he uses them. For some, Jesus' miracles only hardened their hearts further, to the point they mocked him on the cross, telling him to save himself.

    If we want to next time, I'll add a few thoughts to our discussion about miracles in the bibles, miracles today, and the problem of evil (which we never talked about, which kind of surprised me). Matthew, I liked the comics. I wish I was more versed in internet memes.

    FQ: What was Jeremy Bentham's Felific Calculus?

    DQ: How do you define happiness?

    Quote: Stephen Covey, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1538.Stephen_R_Covey)

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  6. Forgot but here it is!
    FQ:What is the term for choosing the action that brings you the most happiness? .... Utilitarianism or Greatest Happiness Principle

    DQ: How do you think that Bentham would factor in an altruistic personality into his equation?

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