Up@dawn 2.0

Thursday, February 7, 2013

14-1: Ends vs. Means

(I apologize for the long post. Someone take my laptop away from me.)

For, Machiavelli, power was the be-all and end-all of life. He believed that people were selfish, untrustworthy creatures, a belief that was, indeed, essential to the disposition of his philosophy. And on this point, our group was divided: was the nature of humans one of compassion or selfishness?

Some stated that humans were predisposed to a life of self-regard, that all of our actions could be traced back to benefit the self. Others disagreed, insisting that humanity is laced with compassion, that our lives are illuminated when shared. Whichever claim you agree with, though, will surely reflect your perception of Machiavelli.

Undoubtedly, Machiavelli achieved unrivaled power. But if absolute power is achieved, then what remains? Why was Machiavelli so consumed by it? If "the ends justify the means," as Machiavelli himself stated, did absolute power—the end—render the course of his life—the means—useless? Suppose Machiavelli did only value the results of his actions. He wouldn't have much to value, then. Death is just another end. So does death eclipse the lives we lead? (Discussion questions)

Nonetheless, Machiavelli succeeded in implementing his philosophy. The people feared him. So they remained silent; not because they didn't have anything to say, but because to do so would be futile attempt. There was no mayhem, but there also wasn't any movement—and without movement, how can we expect peace in a constantly changing world?

In any case, I don't think our group could admire Machiavelli other than in the strange, detached way one admires the names that have made history.

We also touched on the philosophies of both Thomas Hobbes and Rene Descartes. Hobbes' argument for the necessity of an absolute sovereign. Among other things, this view is eurocentric at best. From a historical perspective, the rise of a centralized state of government was the functional result of a growing population, developing civilization, and an increasingly specialized division of labor. That doesn't mean it was the only viable result. Individual freedoms were traded for communal benefits. (This is only one theory of state formation among many.) Also, not all cultures are governed by the state systems referred to by Hobbes. That doesn't mean they are any less functional. So the "social contract" suggested by Hobbes is not the only solution, and arguably not the best.

As for Descartes (after sharing our experiences with lucid dreams and sleepwalking), our group concluded that we never really will know how we exist. But we have enough evidence to believe that we do. "I think, therefore I am," is a good way to put it. Does it matter whether this is all a dream? If you can interact with the world in a dialogue of cause and effect, then it does not—it is still your world, and you can still make a difference in it.

Factual Q: What was the Italian word for "manliness" which Machiavelli believed essential to a successful life?
A: virtรน


6 comments:

  1. Although I missed class on Thursday, I found this chapter very interesting. I feel like it's hard to judge whether or not Machiavelli was in the right or wrong. Not having command or power over others(or a country for that matter) I cannot say what the correct way to rule is:lion or fox or both?
    If you were a ruler, what 'animal' would you take on?
    What was a probable reason for Machiavelli's The Prince?
    A- To impress those in power and attempt to get a job as a professional leader.

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  2. Anonymous10:48 AM CST

    My favorite part is how politics for the most part has not changed very much since Machiavelli. People still give lip service to the public then still stick to their own agenda. Then consider the lies and how smoothly they flow amongst politicians.

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  3. What I got from this chapter was that Machiavelli wanted everything to be his way no matter what. To me it was kind of saying that he was corrupt, and cruel to some mankind. Now for the so called "manliness", i don't know if i can agree on what he says and how to react to things.

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  4. The end result might be what you want it to be if you are wiling to do whatever it taked to get there. If you are a good con-artist you have the abilty to play people to your advantage and to tell the truth in the wrong kind of light to put the twist you need to seem honest and full of virtu/valour. the virtu is maniliness brought to life it is thinking ahead not being afraid to take the chance when it presents itself and doing it bravely and swiftly to give your self the better odds. Machiavelli's veiw that to be feared rather than loved is what he beleived to be a successful ruler does. the thought of this is really a tyranny and would never work in todays society thats what the U.S.A. has been fighting against for centuries from other countries. the fact that the politicians use some of machiavelli's methods in office is the scary part, but that's politics for you.

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  5. I'm not too big of a fan of Machiavelli. I don't really agree that people are basically egocentric, although a lot of people probably do. The child psychologist Piaget has a set of stages that kids go through in cognitive development and in the second stage, which is ages 2-7, he says that children are egocentric and talk at people rather than holding conversations. My baby brother is 3 right now, and his behavior and the behavior of his playmates leads me to believe that Piaget's theory is flawed. While they often talk to themselves and worry about their own wants they are extremely capable of interaction and empathizing, and often put the needs and wants of other before their own. That being said, Piaget's stages also show children growing out of egocentricism eventually. I know that there are people in my life whose needs I put before my own, and I guess Machiavelli's theory of doing whatever you have to to get whats best for you is a little harsh to me.It also makes me think about parents and how a lot of them always put their children's needs first. I just think people aren't made to steal and cheat and murder. I also just don't understand why people crave power because I absolutely would not want that kind of responsibility. It just seems a little silly to me.

    I did really like Descartes though. It made me think of a quote from the movie Waking Life, and really that movie in general.
    "They say that dreams are only real as long as they last but couldn't you say the same about life?"

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  6. Ian Mallari12:47 PM CST

    I do feel like people are egocentric. Maybe not everyone, but many are. It's just the way society ticks...especially in politics. Any time someone can get ahead, they more than likely will. I agree with our anonymous comment that politics have not changed....Truth and trust do not go together... Listening and lying do. Whether or not we agree with this really has no change in the matter...which stinks.

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